THE GREAT AMWAY UK RIP-OFF: UK EX-DISTRIBUTORS' FORUM

On my first page, I stated that I hoped that my web-site would develop as "a much-needed forum to reflect what Amway, and its associated motivational organisations are doing here in the UK".

Steven Reeves alerted me to the failure of most distributors to treat their distributorship as a business and prepare a cash flow statement. This formed the basis to "Page 2" of my web-site. I'm sure there are many former distributors in the UK with suggestions/topics I may want to include.

Dave's story

Hi Ron, just spent an evening looking through the various posts on your site, the long IBS post in particular interested me as I was part of that particular 'leg' for six months, several years ago.  It's quite cathartic for me to relate my story.  Feel free to include it on your site but I'd be grateful if my email remained anonymous.  The story is worded such that it does not mention names.  I think it's quite interesting as my situation and reasons for getting involved were a bit different.

I first got shown the business in August/September 1994.  At the time I was a student in London, I'd taken a year off through redundancy to learn about music production and engineering at a specialist college, something I'd always wanted to do.  It was a private institution and I'd had to fund the 5000 UKP fees myself partially through a Career Development Loan.  Hence I
was not exactly on a secure financial footing.  The one thing I wanted at the time was my own recording studio business.  The setup costs are not inconsiderable, and I immediately saw the Amway networking business, sold as virtually guaranteed substantial extra income, as a ready source of capital for the project.  I was sceptical about it at first but was soon 'drawn in.'

I was not successful in getting any of the people I knew in London interested in seeing the business plan, so I put off signing up to Amway until my course finished in early 1995, when I moved back to live with my mother and stepfather in Wiltshire.  My upline wanted to get me signed up sooner but I was insistent.  I was jobless, getting a decently paid music-related job was near impossible because I didn't have industry experience or know the right people, the idea of my own music studio enterprise funded by an Amway distribution business seemed to be the only option I had for pursuing a career in what I'd studied.  My folks were expressing significant doubts about this, but I put this down to the fact that they hadn't been shown the business properly.  Turning this around, I had been successfully brainwashed, they hadn't.  So I signed up in February whilst still out of a job.  A word to the wise, never, ever do this.  In fact for heaven's sake, if you think you have a serious chance in this
business, ensure first that you are able to lose your initial investment without getting into trouble, ALL BUSINESSES CARRY RISK!

My upline were insistent on my purchasing motivational materials and expensive tickets, despite my protests that I simply did not have the money. The response was basically a question, was I committed to growing the business or not.  More often than not, I gave in, incurring yet another excess overdraft fee!  The other fact of the matter was that until I found a job, my living costs were being subsidised by my folks who were not too enamoured with what I was doing.  They had also paid the rent on my flat in London for the past year, so I felt I owed them something as well. Therefore I was effectively being pulled in opposite directions by two opposing guilt trips, all this combined with the fact that I found the 'cold calling' deeply embarrassing and stressful.  I won't go into detail but there is no doubt in my mind that some people reassessed their relationship with me as a result of those calls.  I did not sponsor anyone during my six months in the business, the phrase 'anyone can do it' is a total myth.  The fact that I stuck it for six months is a good indication of how much erosion of ones critical faculties and common sense takes place.

It wasn't all bad, though.  You can't help but develop a dogged, positive, 'can do' attitude, and I think it helped me to get a clerical job in April 1995, so I could flush my own money down the bog instead of someone else's. That change in attitude does stay with you, even after you quit.  As an aside, I had a rather interesting experience when I did quit.

Towards October '95 I was having a recurrent thought, namely that I wished I'd never come across this lousy business, then I wouldn't have to go through the stress and expense of trying to build it.  Then another thought broke through from the part of my brain that the upline were trying to lobotomise, it's clear as day that this business wasn't for me.  Why the hell don't I just get out now whilst I still have some credibility among the people I truly care about?

All the pressure I was subjected to in the business did not come from my immediate sponsor, it came from the people above him.  My immediate sponsor was a great friend of mine and still is to this day, we have known each other for years.  He is very personable, outgoing and thick-skinned, all the things I'm not, therefore he had a much greater chance of success than I
did.  At one point in 1995 however, he was working himself so hard trying to build his business that he ended up in hospital (though the fact that he was ignoring an infection was probably also a factor).  He quit shortly after me, for different reasons.

It was this guy I spoke to about quitting.  He said that the first thing he would do is give me a reply from the point of view of the business - can't remember exactly what that was, standard IBS flannel.  Then he said he would give me a reply as a friend, which couldn't have been more different, basically he agreed totally with my point of view that if the business was
giving me nothing but grief there was no point in my carrying on.  Top man! So I sold all the training materials I could back to the upline and felt about half a hundredweight lift off my shoulders.

My thoughts six years on?  Unlike a lot of unfortunates, I was not in Amway for very long and despite IBS's best efforts I was able to retain some degree of connection with the real world.  The fact that I got a negative reaction from everyone I contacted about the business was probably quite fortunate, it caused me to get out before incurring seriously unsustainable losses.  One thing I do feel strongly about is the upline's insistence on my 'investing', even after I'd made it perfectly clear that I couldn't just
magic money out of thin air and that I would end up incurring an expensive unauthorised overdraft.  That was deeply irresponsible advice.  If you get this s**t from your upline, remember this, they are doing it out of pure self-interest, that's the way it works.  If you succeed they will benefit, but if you fail then you'll be the one that has to pick up the pieces
afterwards, not them.  It's all very well to say failure is not an option but it happens, and if you go anywhere near Amway you'd better get used to it.I think I've given my experience a fair assessment, I am certainly not bitter.  In fact, despite some of the things I've said previously, I think I may have benefitted in one crucial respect.  The sea change in attitude from 'can't do' to 'can do' has made a tremendous difference.  Recently I was earning a piss-poor wage as an admin assistant with a well-known financial services company.  I got a bit fed up with this, so I thought, what pays good money?  I tried my hand at computer programmingand found I had a bit of a talent for it.  So I took up evening classes in C programming.  Whilst on the course, someone at work  showed me an ad from another well known financial services company, they were after trainee  computer programmers.

Entry requirements: one A-level.  There were 600 applicants for 12 vacancies and I was one of the lucky 12.  What helped me through?  From the outset I (arrogantly) said to myself that I was going to walk into that job.  It was mine, even before I'd completed the application.  I had a letter of resignation ready for my current boss.  This is called positive self-talk, they teach it to you in the business.  Today I am a well-paid systems developer.  In fact at the end of 2000 I will have trebled my end-1998
salary.  Obviously it cannot work miracles but you'd be surprised how many doors magically open for you once you change your outlook on life.

The point is to have a positive attitude, but don't take it so far that you end up in cloud cuckoo land.  Decide where your strengths are and trade on them.  This is why I am a successful computer programmer and a very unsuccessful ex-Amway distributor.  A loser?  Please don't, my sides will split.  As far as I'm concerned, if you're happy in what you do and are
happy with what you've got and are happy with your situation, that makes you a winner.  And if you're unhappy with any of those things but are doing something about it, that also makes you a winner.  And don't believe anyone that tells you otherwise!

I found Peter Palmer's comments interesting, and our correspondence is quoted in full, below:

 "Not my fault Guv!"

AMWAY AND THE AMOs

It has been pointed out that my site does not properly distinguish between Amway and the Amway Motivational Organisations (AMOs). When I first set up my site, I assumed that all traffic would be via links from the US Amway information sites where the Amway/ AMO distinction was well documented. Now that I have a Yahoo listing, it is only fair that this is clarified. It is true that most of my criticisms refer to the "system", as devised and implemented by DTS, the AMO under whose spell I fell under. As with IBS (the other AMO in the UK of which I am aware), it is separate from and independent of Amway (at least in theory). It is perfectly possible to be an Amway distributor outside of these AMOs, and to operate purely in a retail environment, whilst sponsoring the odd person who wishes to be more than a customer. However, whatever the intentions of its founders, I believe that in its operation, Amway is inseparable from its Distributor Networks (AMOs). Amway's attempts to separate themselves from these organisations, (when it suits them), remind me of Sinn Fein's attempts to deny responsibility for the activities of the IRA!

Pete's Story
 

Ron. Just a few short comments. I was once active as a distributor in the IBS network.

1. Your site needs to make the distinction between AMWAY and Amway Networks of distributors. Like your DTS and IBS. who are not employee's of AMWAY. If you don't then you fall foul of the same muddled distinction on other sites of who is really at fault.

2.AMWAY is the wholesaler and has distribution networks of people who make up the networks DTS & IBS etc....whose role is to retail the AMWAY products and to help train and motivate the people whom they have sponsored.

3. AMWAY will pay a commission on certain volumes of product retailed in addition to the retained retail profit when a product is sold to a non-distributor. Enough said here.

4. AMWAY expects you as a sponsoring distributor to nurture your downline in the ideal world this should be free or at the very least at true cost price with no profit motivation.

 You may be wondering where this is going?

Simply AMWAY as a system of distribution none of us had any problems with when we saw the plan, we liked the idea of many doing a little achieving more. UNFORTUNATELY others have seen a way in which the Tapes Books Functions can be promoted such to impress upon people subtly that the only people 'they' have ever seen become successful have 'plugged' into the 'System', and thus ensure a second income stream for some.

How do I know there is a second income derived from the Tapes? A friend whom I contacted early on was actually working for the Tape duplicators and told me that the Tapes at that time cost 50 pence and were being produced in quantities of 30,000+ per week per title and sold to us at distributor level for £3.70!

I personally believe that people who may originally have got involved for ethical reasons have been seduced by the money that can be generated by trusting souls buying into the success system and it is this parasitic behaviour that aggrieves us. because that sounds like a pyramid scam...because what's really their motivation? To help you or themselves to as much as then can suck out of your pockets leaving only the lint.

The Emerald Pin above us was on more than one occasion heard to say if he had two legs and one was all retail and the other just listened and learned and didn't retail the one that was in the system would overtake the other.

 AMWAY is a victim of its HIGH Pin distributors now wagging the dog. Recall Cabouchon blames its fall because of High Pins moving out with their groups to other new companies.

Really the difficulty you face with this site is making sure you are representing what you and others like me have experienced accurately. What's wrong with AMWAY is that they now appear to have no real control over the Big Pins for fear of losing the groups of people these Pins have. True if this was such a great opportunity everyone would do it but not everyone wants to but everyone should and that's the crux. You saw a way out of your situation but many didn't because of the negative behaviour of zealots that DTS & IBS create in people.

Networking as a principle if kept simple can and does work, we do it everyday we refer others to products and services films and TV programmes (yes I watch the TV now and don't feel guilty for it)..etc and that's how simple AMWAY should be. Not are you looking to do more? Are you paid what your worth? Crap! You shouldn't have to hide...

Its late and I'm rambling..

One last thought. DTS = dumb trusting souls IBS = indoctrinated beyond sense."

 Peter Palmer

My response to Peter's reply

Thanks Peter for a very interesting response. This is exactly the type of debate I am seeking to initiate. Yes, I could have said more about the distinctions between Amway and the AMOs, but I felt this was adequately covered by other websites. When I first set up the site, I assumed that it would only be accessed via links from the US based sites, so I didn't feel it necessary to cover the same ground again. I feel I do at least imply a difference between Amway and the AMOs (see Numbers 3 and 5 of my conclusions) but perhaps this could be more explicitly stated.

Also I don't think Amway is as innocent as you imply. If it is a victim (of the greedy high level pins) then it is a very willing one, and deserves not a shred of sympathy. It really should have put its house in order years ago, and appears not to be even attempting to tame the AMOs. Yes, if Amway does show signs of action in this respect, I would report it.

We all have our own experiences, which we draw our own conclusions from. My belief is that the Amway Sales and Marketing Plan is a scam, because its products are overpriced. They claim to "cut out the middle man" but by giving over 60% of the retail price as bonuses end up charging more for their products than one could buy in the high street. Also did you ever compare the prices of the non-Amway goods retailed via the European Catalogue to Argos? Frightening.

Although not hostile to MLM, I am extremely skeptical. Have you seen "What's wrong with Multi-Level marketing" at: http://www.vandruff.com/mlm.html

Despite this if Amway operated like I believe Betterware or Dorling Kindersly do by largely operating in the retail environment who succeed or fail by market forces, I would not have a website. Anyway, I said that I wanted my website to act as a forum for former (or

even current) UK distributors. So why not write a page, and I will add it to my site quoting you as the source etc? I will of course add my own disclaimer.

How about it?

 Best wishes

 Ron
 

Peter's reply to my response:

 Subject: more dreamy weekends. Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998

Dear Ron

I certainly did not mean to imply that AMWAY was in anyway squeaky clean, it certainly would appear to be culpable in promoting training systems. In IBS as some other respondee mentioned there were IBS/AMWAY starter Kits. Basically they were Amway's kit but with additions from the IBS group who have their own website by the way. Did you have this with DTS?

Are you aware that UK's Triple Diamond couple also run DKFL guess they're not making all the money they wanna make? At one point an Emerald Direct called Lyndon Farrington broke away from IBS and tried to run his own functions tapes and books does anyone out there know why? I'm aware he divorced his loving wife and lost his Emeraldship and returned to IBS and has made ruby direct again with a new Mrs F. Another emerald called Pomelli went missing about the same time. He was never mentioned and the topic would not be discussed even with point blank questions asked more than once pearls called Firmen too?

IBS claims to be the largest group in Europe true or false?The direct that answered your pages CHRIS CHAPMAN did he ask his upline if he could be in contact with 'stinking thinking'? There are two sides to every coin but AMWAY is based on Jewels and they are usually cut with multifacets. Guess there are some flaws here as with any business only this isn't any business its based on people volunteering to get out there in the hope that the promises to keep are kept.   Anyone from the Boville groups got a point of view?

We have friends still signed in as we are only we must be such tiny eeny weeny circles that the upline direct can't see us!! He never calls Iguess he knows there's no profit in it. Why are we still members? Because someone upline automatically put our order in for renewal without asking us!! we wont be renewing again this year...there are some products we will miss but we have not missed the access draining system.

Do try to evolve your site into a forum whereby people who have chosen to quit can come to terms with the guilt they feel in having 'failed' and to realise that this is only a mirage planted subliminally by the system they were in. Repetition of messages becomes brainwashing.

Repetition of messages becomes brainwashing. Repetition of messages becomes brainwashing.

My current view is that networking should be kept simple. A friend says to a friend look friend I found some great gizmos from this company at this price and you can get them from them too if you want. I'll give you a freephone number and a referral number you get what you want and the company will bill you and deliver straight to you. You'll get a referral number too and you can pass that on to anyone you know and they can do just the same if they want. If you do that over a period of time the company will see from their computer that you've been running off at the mouth and send you a thankyou note (cheque) for the free advertising, .no meetings no subtefuge no tapes no books no over priced products sounds spooky! Too simple. Too easy. Must be a Scam. Why do it beats me but AMWAY should. smarten up their act and stop resting on laurels that are fast becoming plastic..

 Why do I read your pages and others like them from time to time? Because I guess I really wanted to believe that I could make a difference not just in my life but in others too, for the positive. I have a sales orientated job and my sales manager is hard sell and I'm most definitely soft sell .I know who makes the difference....

 Peter Palmer

Send your comments on this page to me at ronjohnston@blueyonder.co.uk

Reply to Peter at peter@phpnetwork.demon.co.uk

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